"Less than lethal" for home defense?

rundovr

New member
First, please don't use 00 buck shot, as a way to protect your house. Remember that those 9 pellets will travel where ever they want. So if you shoot and a pellet leaves the house and kills your neighbor, you are now under arrest for homicide(not murder which is death cause with malace and intent aforethought) any way use a number 6 steel shot and if you want to know why , give me a call. Second, you have the right to defend your self and family no matter where you are. The old saying of if they fall out pull them inside, you have now tampered with evidence of a crime and have some issuses coming your way. Number 6 steel will stop anyone. with a center mass hit and will not continue long distance to kill the old lady next door. And now to my true belief, a sign that says" if you are breaking in sign in" and have a toe tag with a pen this is a better way deter than the Brinks home security sign. My main thing is tryed by 12 instead of carried by 6 still stands. Becareful of your family members and others, but end the threat.

Luke 742-6477 God Bless the US
 

PETNRDX

New member
Its not "less THAN lethal, its LESS lethal"

All that stuff can still KILL you.
And, I think most of it is crap.
Believe me, I have seen the stuff tested.
Stick with half way decent practice/training.
Most of it is "less lethal", but so is a Louisville Slugger (the best home protection bar none, NOBODY ever got killed cleaning the Louisville)
Know your target, know your weapons.
Don't stand there...
GO TO THE THREAT. (you don't need cover while you are firing, the bad guy does)
NEVER BACK DOWN.
NEVER give up ANY space.
Shoot until the bad guy stops moving.
Then cover him just in case...
As much as I like 00 Buck, the number 6 (or 4) comment above is really true.
 

ZIPGRAVER

New member
All that stuff can still KILL you.
And, I think most of it is crap.
Believe me, I have seen the stuff tested.
Stick with half way decent practice/training.
Most of it is "less lethal", but so is a Louisville Slugger (the best home protection bar none, NOBODY ever got killed cleaning the Louisville)
Know your target, know your weapons.
Don't stand there...
GO TO THE THREAT. (you don't need cover while you are firing, the bad guy does)
NEVER BACK DOWN.
NEVER give up ANY space.
Shoot until the bad guy stops moving.
Then cover him just in case...
As much as I like 00 Buck, the number 6 (or 4) comment above is really true.
Most of what you just said will get your killed. Baseball bats are for playing baseball and cover is a good way to allow you to defend yourself. Any self defense instructor will always emphasize that you keep your attacker away from you...the length of a bat is not keeping your attacker away from you. Neither is allowing your attacker to take cover and moving toward them?? Holey $hit..that is probably the best way to meet your maker. Only some macho man would say never give up your space. Screw that... never give up your life or put yourself in a position that will get you killed. This ain't a war zone and we're not soldiers. If you can get out of there without getting killed or wounded along with family then I say DO IT. Don't ever try to be a hero.
 

ZIPGRAVER

New member
OH BTW- F*** those soft bullets.... I just bought a box of Glazer Powerball 45 ACP. Gonna try them to see how much devastation they wil cause.:D
 

rbracer

New member
I already have a "less lethal" tool, it's called a dead-bolt. Once they get past that I'm not worried about their safety or chances of survival. I don't want to kill anyone, but whether or not they survive is between them, God and the medical community.
haha thats great i agree completely
 

PETNRDX

New member
I was a Cop for 27 years.
I respectfully disagree with you.
I will stick with the way I was trained.
NEVER give an inch.
If you want to let the bad guy pursue you thru your house.
That is your right.
Its really hard to shoot over your shoulder.
Its also really hard to walk backwards and shoot without tripping.
I think I will stick with going to the threat.
It worked pretty well for me for a quarter century.
 

Gizmatical Fuquad

Well-known member
Premium Member
Most of what you just said will get your killed. Baseball bats are for playing baseball and cover is a good way to allow you to defend yourself. Any self defense instructor will always emphasize that you keep your attacker away from you...the length of a bat is not keeping your attacker away from you. Neither is allowing your attacker to take cover and moving toward them?? Holey $hit..that is probably the best way to meet your maker. Only some macho man would say never give up your space. Screw that... never give up your life or put yourself in a position that will get you killed. This ain't a war zone and we're not soldiers. If you can get out of there without getting killed or wounded along with family then I say DO IT. Don't ever try to be a hero.
I was a Cop for 27 years.
I respectfully disagree with you.
I will stick with the way I was trained.
NEVER give an inch.
If you want to let the bad guy pursue you thru your house.
That is your right.
Its really hard to shoot over your shoulder.
Its also really hard to walk backwards and shoot without tripping.
I think I will stick with going to the threat.
It worked pretty well for me for a quarter century.

I usually agree with you on most things, Gary, but on this I gotta call you an uninformed. You must always advance on the enemy until they are no longer a threat, be they dead or otherwise incapacitated. If you invade my space and threaten me and/or my family, I will advance until one of us is dead.
 
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robinsonre

New member
I usually agree with you on most things, Gary, but on this I gotta call you an uninformed. You must always advance on the enemy until they are no longer a threat, be they dead or otherwise incapacitated. If you invade my space and threaten me and/or my family, I will advance until one of us is dead.
Advance, retreat...it's all directional.

Move in the manner that is most likely to get you shot, while most likely to allow you to shoot your enemy. Probably an unwise decision to charge a shotgun wielding maniac. Put yourself in an advantageous position and fight aggressively until the enemy is incapacitated.

There are times when advancing is appropriate, and there are times when rearward or lateral movement is appropriate. Just keep moving and keep shooting until the fight is over.

To quote an old soldier wiser than I : "If you're stance, grip, sight picture and trigger control are good you are probably not running fast enough or using cover correctly"
 
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PETNRDX

New member
If someone is in your home with a weapon, they mean you harm.
They are PLANNING on you to be passive.
They are planning to/or don't care if they hurt you and your family or they would come when you ARE NOT HOME and just take your stuff.
Again, they are PLANNING to hurt you and for you to be passive and to retreat.
The discussion in the many above posts is that you are defending your home and family.
Sorry, but you ARE at war and a soldier at that point.
How far are you going to back up?
Living room, hallway, babies room, daughters room?
Every instructor I ever listened to (many over MANY years) said to go to and eliminate the threat.
Never give up ground in your home. ( I would not give up ground anywhere unless I had NO choice. At home, no give up)
That is the discussion above, and I stick with that.
A "shotgun wielding maniac" ( also known as a full silhouette target with features) is probably the best example.
He probably is not going to leave any witnesses.
And I bet he would be really surprised at someone advancing and shooting at him, which gives YOU the advantage.
You back up, he has the advantage.
And, I still disagree about the Louisville slugger.
Are you going to tell me that you DON'T want your wife (if you are married) to use a baseball bat if she has nothing else, and/ or won't use a gun?
USE ANYTHING YOU HAVE.
Fingernails if that is all you have.
People that break into your home are not there to play games.
I have SEEN what happens to people that take the passive position.
That may have been fair advice in the 1950's.
The world is a different place that 60 years ago.
The "roll over and take it, and live to fight another day" perspective doesn't apply anymore ( in my opinion).
Too much has been learned by bad people when the watch TV and movies.
They KNOW you will be passive, and that is what they count on.
Prove them wrong, and the are VERY surprised, and usually bleeding...
 

PhantomRage

New member
410 shotshell out of a three inch barrel to stun and get the attacker to stop in there tracks. After that, 45 long colt to the head so they will not suffer. End of story. My stance is, you made that bad decision when you decided to enter my house with the intend to cause harm.
 

Fyresq

New member
I can understand all of your points but "accidental" shootings happen way, way, way more often than justifiable homicides. It's easy to say "identify your target first" but being woken up in pitch black, middle of the night, can't see, have no balance, can't pee straight in the toilet, don't know where the hell you are or what is happening is a lot different than most people think. I get up during the night to an alarm as a fireman all the time and can tell you that it takes me a good 30 seconds to get my bearings and be able to somewhat focus. Depending on the time of night and my state of sleep it's worse or better. You do not have the focus or ability to immediately identify someone, period. This is not a shoot first, ask questions later scenario.

Again, a first non-lethal round gives me (or someone else) a whoops factor, and I use 6 shot after that. At any distance in your home, there really is very little difference in your patterns and damage of different shot because you are so close.

Those people who think they'll be less likely to be sued or in trouble if they kill someone instead of hitting them with a non-lethal round are delusional. Even a cop is put on immediate leave and investigated when they shoot someone. What happens when they taze someone? They write a report. You might want to look at how often cops and departments get sued for shooting someone by ratio to tazing someone.

But that's not really my argument......my argument is that if you shoot someone and you didn't really mean to, you don't get to take it back. And you may not even be involved. Does your wife have the ability to shoot the gun when you aren't home? Older kids? I have personally known two seperate family friends whose kids were involved in accidental shootings (one in med school who shot a friend and killed him messing around with a shotgun that he thought was unloaded and now instead of a doctor he's an inmate and the other was a self inflicted grazing)

And I have never been hit by a rubber bullet round, but they seem to do a pretty good job in putting someone down, and again if they get back up you got 8 more for real
 

Xantasm

Member
Hmmm

1. Double 00 buck doesnt penetrate walls anywhere near as much as they seem to be made out to. I know from experience, not hollywood. At twenty feet the spread is less than the size of the bottom of a coke can and each of those balls lose forward momentum rapidly with everything they go through because they are usually soft lead and were encased in a loose packed plastic cartridge as opposed to crimped brass casing. Thats why police swat and tactical units prefer it for its close range lethality because of its kenetic transferability with minimal structural penetration. Thats also why military police like using it. So where exactly is the data supporting double 00 buck careening through the sidewall of your house across the span to your neighbors house and penetrating their sidewalls and killing them while they sit innocently watching Wheel of Fortune? A .22 has more penetrating power than double 00 buck and statistically speaking .38's have killed more people in police shootings than any other caliber. Not to say it isnt possible caue most anything is, just that its less likely with 00 buck than with a .38, but if 00 buck isnt your preferred choice you can always go with #4 buckshot which is just as lethal at ten feet but less lethal at 150 feet.

2. Comparing cop shootings and home invasion shootings is like comparing bananas and zebra's, sure they both come from warm climates but thats not a strong comparison? Cops are under regulation not to discharge their sidearm unless justified by immenant danger of death to themselves or others because they are certified and bonded by their respective agencies. They are also tasked with avoiding lethal shots to the fullest extent possible because of political sensativity to the modern perceptions of cops as killers. I dont have any of those issues to deal with if faced with possibly shooting an armed invader. My only obligation is to not chase him down the street shooting him if he manages to flee. If he is armed and is threatening me, the law says I can use lethal force on him if I feel that my life or the life of others is in danger.

3. Killing your attacker vs leaving them alive. Well if their dead your the only left to give a statement to the police. If you feel thats it's better to wound them then I hope for you it turns out for the best, as for me I plan on excersizing my legal right to use lethal force if neccesary.

4. If your not prepared to deal with an attacker in the middle of the night, then your not taking the threat seriously. Do you have some kind of plan for if the house catches on fire or if there is a natural disaster? If you do then it seems rather a bad judgment to not as well be prepared for an armed attacker. Me personally the U.S. Army Cavalry gave me some really good extensive training on how to deal with surprise attacks at all hours as a Reconnaisance Scout, so I plan to use that training as my defense strategy. BTW military doctrine says that which ever side can deal the most violence within the first few minutes of any combat engagement statistically has the best chance for success. The same goes for civilian gunfights.

5. Planning is key, lack of attention to detail can get you killed. If you dont have a plan to defend yourself, why did you bother buying a gun for home defense? Kinda useless at that point. Might as well buy a big home safe and put em all in there so a relative can at least get them in your will.

And firesq, having worked as a firefighter also you should know as well as I do that you only get good at rapid response through practice. I am sure you, like me, were completely disorganized and unsure of what to do the first few times you got a call at o dark thirty in the morning. After time you get to the point where your response is based on routine and training and not muddled half asleep thoughts. How does one over come that blundering unfamiliarity, through practice and experience. So my belief is that just like other situations where you have to come up startled and disoriented you have to practice what to do before your response is a good one. I always know where my firearms are in relation to where I am sleeping in the dark or if a bright light is shining on me. I can thank my military training for the majority of that, but I know if I hear a sudden startling sound how to come up prepared to fire within a few short seconds. Not to say I am perfect at it, just that I have had alot of practice and I think that anyone who wants to be prepared for such a thing should practice what to do in that situation.
 
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PETNRDX

New member
Good point.
But, NEVER shoot anything you don't want to kill, destroy, etc.
If you are awake in 30 seconds, you likely beat me by 30 seconds, I bet I am more like a minute.
Training should be you don't EVER point a gun until you know what you are going to kill.
I go back to the Louisville slugger, that is why I believe it is a good option to have when there ain't anything else, or other choices don't make sense.
Yeah, there are WAY too many accidental shootings.
Too many people that are WAY too macho, and THINK they know what they are doing, or they get scared or confused.
Firing before they are sure.
Ya' gotta be sure of your target.
Another reason why I believe you don't back up.
How are you going to maintain a sight picture and get/maintain situational awareness if you are not focused on one thing? (bad guy).
Fewer things you are thinking about (decisions to make) means you are more likely to make correct decisions.
As for family members, if they are likely to shoot first and ask questions later, are you even sure you should leave a gun there?
I wouldn't trust my life to the "koosh" or "bean bags", but that doesn't mean you can't.
One nice thing about this country is there doesn't have to be a one size fits all.
Some like revolvers, some 45 auto, some shotgun.
The real bottom line should be that people REALLY evaluate their choice, don't just buy the hype.
Be sure you choose something for its real advantages, not just a belief system.
Too many people make decisions based on a belief system that is not true.
 

robinsonre

New member
If someone is in your home with a weapon, they mean you harm.
They are PLANNING on you to be passive.
They are planning to/or don't care if they hurt you and your family or they would come when you ARE NOT HOME and just take your stuff.
Again, they are PLANNING to hurt you and for you to be passive and to retreat.
The discussion in the many above posts is that you are defending your home and family.
Sorry, but you ARE at war and a soldier at that point.
How far are you going to back up?
Living room, hallway, babies room, daughters room?
Every instructor I ever listened to (many over MANY years) said to go to and eliminate the threat.
Never give up ground in your home. ( I would not give up ground anywhere unless I had NO choice. At home, no give up)
That is the discussion above, and I stick with that.
A "shotgun wielding maniac" ( also known as a full silhouette target with features) is probably the best example.
He probably is not going to leave any witnesses.
And I bet he would be really surprised at someone advancing and shooting at him, which gives YOU the advantage.
You back up, he has the advantage.
And, I still disagree about the Louisville slugger.
Are you going to tell me that you DON'T want your wife (if you are married) to use a baseball bat if she has nothing else, and/ or won't use a gun?
USE ANYTHING YOU HAVE.
Fingernails if that is all you have.
People that break into your home are not there to play games.
I have SEEN what happens to people that take the passive position.
That may have been fair advice in the 1950's.
The world is a different place that 60 years ago.
The "roll over and take it, and live to fight another day" perspective doesn't apply anymore ( in my opinion).
Too much has been learned by bad people when the watch TV and movies.
They KNOW you will be passive, and that is what they count on.
Prove them wrong, and the are VERY surprised, and usually bleeding...
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not reccomending you "roll over and take it" or give up your wife or daughter, I'm not suggesting that you let them outmaneuver you in your own home.

What I'm saying is that neglecting the tactical advantage of cover and making a beeline for someone that already may have the drop on you is a tactically unsound move, and one that will get you killed.

Use your head, it's your greatest weapon. Recognize that you don't have to die for the piece of ground you're standing on. If you CAN move you should, but erratic lateral movements are preferable to forward movements. Recognize that approaching an enemy from the side or rear puts you at a MASSIVE advantage over an approach from the front. Recognize that it's INFINITELY easier to hold a position than to assault a position and any trainer who says otherwise hasn't the slightest understanding of tactics or military history.

Use the advantages given to you. Running into gunfire WILL get you killed, and then where will your mothe, wife, daughter, brother, sister or loved oner be.

If you have an opening yes CHARGE, be aggressive and fight to disable the opponent, don't stop until they CAN'T hurt you....but don't throw your life away by running straight into a hail of bullets.
 

PETNRDX

New member
Don't take this the wrong way, but.

I am not sure if you are trying to back pedal or to overly belabor the point, or just what.
You are insulting me, and I am really getting tired of it.
If I am in my house and someone is already shooting, its probably going to be game over.
In that process if there is any kind of lull (there always is) go to the threat.
That is how you suppress incoming fire. Backing down the hall doesn't suppress anything. It encourages the attacker tho.
We are not talking a squad in a machine gun pit where we have an advantage and lots of ammo.
We are talking a home, where an intruder must be assumed to be up to no good.
Very good chance he is awake, often on drugs, has poor situational awareness, but hopes you take a passive roll, and are unarmed.
Must take control of the situation from him, and make it yours.
To make it clear, no you don't just jump up and run to the bullets and die for kitchen and country," come on man" (From Foot ball night in America).
When you see the weapon (no matter what it is) go to and suppress that source of danger.
If he is already firing, likely you are dead or soon will be.
The first chance is your best chance.
The first with overwhelming force usually wins.
Remember you probably aren't going to be cruising around the house with 50 rounds of ammo on extra magazines or speed-loaders.
Most fights (guns, knives, Louisville, fists, whatever) is over pretty quick.
The longer it goes, the more people are hurt or die.
Use the tactic that is most like to make you the winner.
Come across like a raving lunatic, but maybe don't be one.
 
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gunrunner1911

New member
Check the website Box O Truth to see what penetrates what it's real world fairly scientific stuff. 00 is a little tough on the sheet rock shotguns are not point and pull weapons the shot pattern is narrow at self defense distance. Ask your insurance company if they will cover YOU in the event you decide to go all out in your house. Hitting electrical wires, fire hazard, or water pipes which causes major damage.
No one has yet to mention NRS 41.095 makes me wonder who their intructors were. Never mind. The law states that when the person enters your house for the pupose of home invasion burglary or assault you are authorized deadly force with out having to justify reasonable fear like you have to do on the street. They may not sue you unless there are conditions met and it is on the assailants shoulders to prove it. Residence is defined.
So what we are discussing here is the complete failure of home security. Home security and defence is not about having a shotgun loaded with the right ammo and enough of it to fend off an invasion. It means elimination of the threat. Understanding the criminal mindset and types of criminals you face will be the starting point and then the hardening of the perimeter to acceptable defense levels. A plan of defense and implimentation of the plan. The training to properly deal with it. Not sure how many people have actually gone through room/house clearing 101 with both long and short arms but if not done properly it leaves you vulnerable on many levels. What about the people you are resposible for? What is there defense while your running and gunning in the living room saving the family DVD collection while pumping copious amounts of lead throught the big screen?
 

ZIPGRAVER

New member
I usually agree with you on most things, Gary, but on this I gotta call you an uninformed. You must always advance on the enemy until they are no longer a threat, be they dead or otherwise incapacitated. If you invade my space and threaten me and/or my family, I will advance until one of us is dead.
You're calling ME an .....?? And here I thought we were friends...guess not. I'm sure the only reason your thread is still here is because you're a vendor.

Oh and you and every other big talker on this therad is.......... Let's forget about cops, soldiers, trained fighters etc and concentrate on just plain ordinary people. When confronted by an attacker most people will get scared $hitless, get tunnel vision, sweaty palms, loss of coordination and direction and a very fast heart beat. It's not unsual for an inexpeienced person to freeze and be incapable of doing anything for some time. Most people will run from a threat..maybe you macho guys won't but normal people do. And mr cop for 27 years your advice will get people killed. You all may think I'm just some sort of fat old man but I assure you I have had plenty of SD training and in every instance the trainer emphasized that you protect yourself first then eliminate the threat. I never heard anyone say grab you gun or your baseball bat and charge your assailant. How many guys here have ever faced an intruder in the home? And I don't mean cops.
 
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