"Less than lethal" for home defense?


New member
And firesq, I worked as a firefighter before I went in the Army and if your not prepared to be up and ready to respond in a seconds notice you really need to practice. You should be able to have your turnouts and your scott pack on and jumping up into an engine within a few short minutes of hearing that bell if your in the station house, and if your at home you should be out the door with your turnouts in hand headed to your vehicle before your brain even registers your awake. The same applies to the idea of a home invasion. You should practice where your firearm is and where your best defense position is should you be caught unaware.

Thanx for letting me know how I should do my job :cool: Been doing it for 15 years now and the average response from tone time to out the door is less than two minutes. I'll try to put my statement in another way. It takes me about the time from when I get up to the time I reach the engine (either by stairs or pole) to be "awake" enough to be able to safely drive the apparatus. Putting your turnouts on, (you don't put a pack on till you are in a seat since it's already there), and whatever else is all off of rote memory and automatically done just like you don't think about putting your pants on when you wake up in the morning. That's why it's drilled on a weekly basis and we are required to meet a time limit. But thanx for trying to make it out that I am negligent in doing my job. Real cool

I don't respond from home as I'm not a volunteer, but I would think it gives you even more time to prepare yourself for the upcoming call since the average volunteer response time to the station is 5 minutes and then another 2 to 3 get out the door for a combined response time of 7-8 minutes being the national average

This thread was supposed to be about why people would or wouldn't use non-lethal force before going lethal not about bashing someone on how they do their job.

Where did you work as a fireman?


New member
Don't take this the wrong way, but.

I am not sure if you are trying to back pedal or to overly belabor the point, or just what.
You are insulting me, and I am really getting tired of it.
If I am in my house and someone is already shooting, its probably going to be game over.
In that process if there is any kind of lull (there always is) go to the threat.
That is how you suppress incoming fire. Backing down the hall doesn't suppress anything. It encourages the attacker tho.
We are not talking a squad in a machine gun pit where we have an advantage and lots of ammo.
We are talking a home, where an intruder must be assumed to be up to no good.
Very good chance he is awake, often on drugs, has poor situational awareness, but hopes you take a passive roll, and are unarmed.
Must take control of the situation from him, and make it yours.
To make it clear, no you don't just jump up and run to the bullets and die for kitchen and country," come on man" (From Foot ball night in America).
When you see the weapon (no matter what it is) go to and suppress that source of danger.
If he is already firing, likely you are dead or soon will be.
The first chance is your best chance.
The first with overwhelming force usually wins.
Remember you probably aren't going to be cruising around the house with 50 rounds of ammo on extra magazines or speed-loaders.
Most fights (guns, knives, Louisville, fists, whatever) is over pretty quick.
The longer it goes, the more people are hurt or die.
Use the tactic that is most like to make you the winner.
Come across like a raving lunatic, but maybe don't be one.

Yeesh man, nobody's trying to insult you.

Sorry if I offended, I thought we were having a perfectly civil conversation.

Remember, I'm not the bad-guy you've got to take down.

I guess some people's opinions stir higher emotions than others...
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[Where did you work as a fireman?/QUOTE]

Grand Canyon, South Rim. Structural and Wildland but I didnt really like wildland much, structural was tons more fun. Wasnt meaning to bash you, maybe I should have worded it better cause it didnt come across as well as it sounded when I was typing it lol. I reworded what I said in my earlier post to better express my point without sounding condescending or like a royal smart ass lol.

Check the website Box O Truth
OK, have you read the article on that site where the author does a comparison shot between 00 buck and slugs and makes the conclusion that the penetrating power of the buckshot was much less than he expected? Not to say it wont penetrate or that it isnt lethal, but that it is a more desirable round for indoor home defense than other rounds with higher rate of penetration http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

"Frankly, I was surprised that the shotgun did not penetrate more than it did. I had been led to believe that they penetrated more than a .223 rifle or a 9mm or .45 ACP. Such was not the case.

Amazing what you can learn by doing a little testing."

And since you seem to appreciate the articles there here is another quote from that same one:

"But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys."

And as far as the law regarding civil suits after the fact, the very law you cited states they can sue but the burden of proof is on them. "They may not sue you unless there are conditions met and it is on the assailants shoulders to prove it." Isnt that exactly what was said earlier that popular opinion is its better to kill them rather than wound them because legally they can still sue you?

I copied the ad for those less than lethal koosh ball rounds and according to their listing injury or death can occur, especially they are traveling at 650fps upon exiting the end of the barrel.

http://www.lightfieldlesslethal.com/law_superstar.html SuperStar LSSR-12
12 gauge

Case length: 2.75 in / 70mm
Ammunition class: Less Lethal
Projectile type: Flexible baton
Projectile color: Green
Projectile weight: 75 grains
Projectile diameter: 1.25 inches
Muzzle velocity: 650 fps
Kinetic energy @ muzzle: 70 ft/lbs
Min. engagement distance: 2 yards
Intended Use:
The SuperStar is a close-range less lethal impact projectile intended for direct fire at targets between 2 and 15 yards. The user should only target large muscle groups and soft tissue from the abdomen and below. Always avoid targeting the head, neck, thorax, spine, kidney area and groin as serious injury or death may occur.
The patented design of the 'Star' projectile intentionally embodies properties that virtually eliminate the undesirable tendencies of the typical drag stabilized, sock style bean-bag. The Star design utilizes less weight and higher velocity than other single projectile loads. The Star's larger overall diameter and flexible composition compliments its other properties to allow for a safer deposition of Kinetic Energy. The overall design of the Star greatly reduces the likelihood of penetration, broken bones or deep internal injury.
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